What is sad about this? Small sizes are nice but as a consumer I don't care much. If a larger file size means that apps can be produced easier then I have zero objections.
Because for many consumers, 40MB where it could be 4MB means e.g. 5 minutes of download instead of 30 seconds, or 4% of their data plan instead of 0.4%.
And waste is kind of like honesty - if you are wasteful with this, you're probably wasteful with everything else. Like with storage usage, which is a hard constraint on anything but top-of-the-line mobile phones. Like with network usage. Like with energy usage, which accumulates over everyone making wasteful software and adds up into lots of unnecessary emissions.
As a consumer, I don't care about who is first to the market. Take extra time to make your application not suck. It doesn't take that much more.
How do you know the 40MB download wasn't aggressively optimized down from 400MB? Equating larger file size with lower quality is presumptuous. Is there any known correlation? Equating larger file size with lower honesty seems dishonest to me.
Optimizing takes time, sometimes a lot of time. I know because I've spent a lot of time optimizing file sizes to fit on game consoles, taking xbox360 games over to the Wii for example. If you optimize aggressively when there's no strong need to, when consumers like the one you replied to don't really care, and wont' change their buying habits, you are prematurely optimizing. That's a significant waste of precious time (and money) for a developer.
We (humans) waste a lot of things that are much more important than people's data plans. Gasoline and food, for examples. Why haven't we reduced those 10x? It is possible.
> How do you know the 40MB download wasn't aggressively optimized down from 400MB?
I don't; I thought the context made it clear, that I meant relatively trivial apps that do little but are bloated internally.
> Is there any known correlation
Possibly, I don't know. But I also learned that heuristic from experience. When large app sizes are justified, you usually see this in functionality.
> That's a significant waste of precious time (and money) for a developer.
OTOH from a consumer point of view, you're saving time by externalizing your waste on me. I know that "optimize everything" isn't the right answer, but so IMO isn't "optimize nothing". If you save one dev day by wasting each user's 10 minutes over their use of the app, those 10 minutes multiplied by 100k users suddenly become over two man-years of wasted time.
I know that you can't compare users' time to developers' time 1:1, but the scale at which those decisions affect people is still worth minding. Especially for other resources, as e.g. electricity usage does add up pretty much linearly, unlike small time periods.
> We (humans) waste a lot of things that are much more important than people's data plans. Gasoline and food, for examples. Why haven't we reduced those 10x? It is possible.
And many people are working on it too. I find wasting those things to be bad as well.
Applications become increasingly bloated when they need to support lots of different environments and runtimes.
To give a modern example: if I want a web app to run on a wide range of browsers, I have to include shims and polyfills to handle missing functionality, API differences, and implementation bugs.
But it's not a problem limited to the web, it exists with native applications as well. This is why Electron apps are huge energy and memory hogs. It abstracts every native layer in order for the application to run pretty much everywhere.
IMO, it's not such a horrible thing in some cases. I usually prefer native applications for anything that I'll be using regularly... But electron apps can be incredibly handy for one-off utilities. To give an example I'm personally familiar with: I occasionally use Etcher [0] to burn images to USB and SD cards. I've used it on macOS 10.12, Windows 10, and Ubuntu 17.04 without any issues! The most famous native alternative I'm familiar with is UNetbootin, which didn't seem to work on macOS when I last tried it. Of course, on macOS and Ubuntu I also have the option of using the terminal, which requires me to look up or remember the platform-specific way of listing all disks, identifying the target, unmounting it, and copying the image.
That's all fair. I don't like bloat either. I'd suggest the ecosystem is more to blame than individuals devs. Apple and Google could do more to fix this problem than anyone else. It's too easy to make a basic app that's large, and it takes too much effort to get the file sizes down. If it were easier to make a small app than a large one, apps would be smaller.
The real problem is economic, which is why I brought up food & gas. We are optimizing them slowly, but it's not happening quickly because it takes too much effort and consumers don't care enough. You're right that not optimizing is externalizing the waste onto consumers, and that user waste happens at a vastly different scale than developer waste. Which is why if consumers made a big enough stink, the problems would get fixed more quickly.
I agree with everything you wrote here. I too see the problem as primarily systemic.
The problem here is also that users are kind of "captive consumers" of software; i.e. more often than not, there's no other choice besides either using or not using a piece of software. And even if there is a choice, it's usually between two or three pieces of softare, all competing with each other on shiny features and accumulating bloat at tremendous speed.
The frustration is there though; it shows in the rare cases when there is a partial choice. For instance, I know plenty of people who refuse to use Facebook app because of the battery usage, and instead choose to go to Facebook mobile site (which is objectively more annoying and less user-friendly than the app).
> Which is why if consumers made a big enough stink, the problems would get fixed more quickly.
Which is why I do my part in making the stink, complaining about the bloat and waste in places where both users and developers can hear, besides trying to ensure my own backyard (at work and otherwise) is as bloat-free as possible. I guess that's the best I can think of without going into full advocacy mode.
Well, since the problem is economic, the stink has to be economic. For consumers to make a stink, it means they have to withhold their money and stop purchasing wasteful products, not voice their complaints after purchasing.
Despite how much time we all spend solving problems we fear we have but don't really have, most devs don't actually have the option to spend significant portions of their time optimizing, even if they want to. I've been exposed to squeezing large games down onto a Wii console because it was a requirement to ship, but not because we cared about bloat. We did care about bloat, btw, but we didn't spend anywhere near as much time reducing file sizes on the PS3 as on the Wii, even though we could. It was an organizational decision that I had almost no control over.
Gamedev plays by different rules. You guys work too hard already :). I was thinking more about regular run-of-the-mill app and webdev.
> For consumers to make a stink, it means they have to withhold their money and stop purchasing wasteful products, not voice their complaints after purchasing.
Yeah, but that's not easy to do either. I added that point in the ninja-edit to my previous comment. In my experience, in many areas consumers don't really have any real choice. I.e. you choose from what is available on the market, not from the space of all possible products. There is no good line for getting feedback from consumers to producers about options not explored, or even about the reason you refrain from buying something. Again, I currently have no idea how to approach this.
I had to upgrade my phone because it ran out of internal memory and I had to keep removing apps I valued, as they all grew in size.
So bloat cost me real money.
Just because you don't care doesn't mean others don't. This is one of my pet peeves. Developers building things on high spec machines with fantastic network connections. Your website is impossible for others to use as it is so slow and cumbersome but the devs never notice.
Software has been increasing in size over time since the beginning of software. This will never change. It goes hand in hand with why hardware keeps getting bigger capacity too. I agree that some of it is bloat, but some of it is more features and content too. When the OS adds a little, and the libraries add a little, and the apps add a little, the downloads get more than a little bigger, but it can be a side-effect of everyone adding useful features at every level.
There will always be a hardware limit, so if you install apps up to your limit, you will eventually have to delete some of them, no matter how small the apps are and no matter how big your phone's memory capacity is. You can't entirely blame that on developers, it's your budget to deal with. You can buy a bigger phone or install fewer apps. I like to keep a good 20-30% of my memory free just so things I depend on have room to grow.
You also have the option to swap out apps continually. It'd be a pain in the ass for sure, but if the least important app on your phone that you had to delete is really one you couldn't live without, you have the option to delete something else and re-install it, and then swap back later.
No, no one does. Any more than they cast nets to catch wishes, phone their mums every time they step on a crack to make sure that her back is okay etc. etc.
