So Lyft and Uber recently threw a tantrum and fled Austin TX when a vote on legislature regarding TNCs didn't go their way.
A few new local companies have popped up to fill the hole in the market, and many have attracted drivers who were formerly with Lyft and Uber.
I've talked to a few of them about the new companies versus Lyft/Uber, and every single one of them has voiced the same thing; Lyft and Uber treat their drivers like shit, pull questionable stunts like this (one even mentioned something similar, except his app kept crashing or signing him out for 48 hours before the deadline for his 100 ride bonus, preventing him from getting the last few rides), and generally being dicks towards their "independent drivers".
Every single driver I asked said they wouldn't go back to Uber/Lyft. Most even indicated they wouldn't go back even if Uber/Lyft returned and drove the new companies out of business.
I've had great experiences with many drivers, and I hate think that they've been getting such a rotten deal from these companies.
Wait, you've had local competitors come in and fill the gap when Uber and Lyft left? But I thought Austin's new law was job-killing regulation that would make it impossible to have modern ride-hailing services there. Surely Uber and Lyft didn't lie to us?
To be fair, the tech to support a single city is radically less impressive than a global operation, which means it's very easy for startups to fill the void when the big companies have already done all the work to create the market and then all vanish at the same time. Still, they're doing a great job, and most are on track to meet the city's regulations.
Which is one reason that so many people feel Uber's valuation is a joke. Austin is hard evidence that Uber hasn't purchased anything with their "growth spending."
Not just that, but RideAustin is a non-profit and mimics virtually every feature of Uber. I seriously wonder if non-profit versions of the business will expand into other cities and challenge Uber and Lyfts margins.
> I seriously wonder if non-profit versions of the business will expand into other cities and challenge Uber and Lyfts margins.
Why would non-profits inherently be able to beat Lyft or Uber's margins?
Non-profits, despite the name, are not prohibited from making a profit. Conversely, the "profit" referred to in "for-profit companies" doesn't come out of their margins.
And even if you're talking about their bottom line rather than their margins, it's not like venture-backed companies are required to run at an operating profit anyway. To my knowledge, Uber has never actually issued GAAP accounting demonstrating that they're turning a profit[0]. Which makes sense - the whole point of raising outside capital is to spend money faster than you'd otherwise have access to it. Both non-profits and for-profit companies do this.
Non-profits are functionally equivalent to for-profit companies. The only distinction in this case is that a non-profit would have a harder time raising money, because they can't provide equity in exchange for the outside funding they obtain, whereas a for-profit company can.
[0] They've made plenty of non-GAAP claims, but that doesn't mean anything.
> Non-profits, despite the name, are not prohibited from making a profit.
Sure, but I would argue non-profit is still a useful term because while technically not accurate, it's not accurate in the same way people aren't being technically accurate in what they mean when they refer to an organization as non-profit. A non-profit cannot distribute its funds to owners or shareholders, it can only retain them to further its goal or ensure it's future survival. At the same time, I would argue more people mean "there isn't one or more people at the top profiting from ownership" when they say non-profit. This is an important distinction because it may lead to different incentives for the organization beyond survival (maximizing shareholder/owner profits vs maximizing customers served or some other metric).
> Why would non-profits inherently be able to beat Lyft or Uber's margins?
Presumably by doing everything Lyft or Uber do but without the need to ever pay out to investors. Whether that's likely is another story, but I don't think it's impossible, it just takes longer to self bootstrap and can be very hard (for example you might have to fight loss-leading tactics from a for-profit that's willing to defer profits until you are gone).
> At the same time, I would argue more people mean "there isn't one or more people at the top profiting from ownership" when they say non-profit.
Yes, and this is a bad usage of the term, because whether or not there are people "at the top" profiting from ownership has nothing to do with whether the company is structured as a non-profit or a for-profit company. People "at the top" can profit from a non-profit, and you can run a for-profit company without "people at the top profiting".
It's unfortunate that the term we use to refer to companies which cannot distribute dividends is "non-profit", but it's really bad to project conceptions of what those companies should act like onto them simply based on how the term sounds in common vernacular.
And again, whether you are using the term with its precise meaning or with its colloquial one, non-profit status has no impact on a company's margins:
> Presumably by doing everything Lyft or Uber do but without the need to ever pay out to investors.
"Paying out investors" does not impact their margins. They can pay out investors from their profit margins (if they have any), but the fact that non-profits don't have any investors to pay out doesn't mean that their margins magically go up.
And, yes, it's true that you never need to pay out investors if you never have any. Of course, if you never have any investors and your competitors all do, you're starting off at a huge disadvantage.
> And again, either way you use the term, non-profit status has no impact on a company's margins
I think your interpretation of the original comment and statement may be different than some of those you are in discussion with. I interpreted "challenge Uber and Lyfts margins" as "compete at a similar level" (with the margins of competitors being affected by the competition), and it appears you might be interpreting it as "getting better margins than the competitors". It's also possible to read the original statement as raising the question of whether it's even possible, and so fully in line with your position.
It is poor wording though. Margins have a complex relationship with, and are only one of the variables that goes into, profit.
> "Paying out investors" does not impact their margins.
Insofar as investors are willing (or forced) to defer payment it doesn't, but pressure can change strategy, and strategy can change margins. But as I outlined above, I'm not really making any argument for better/worse margins from a non-profit. Actually, I'm not making an argument that non-profits are any better at providing a service or surviving either. I was just adding a bit of information to the discussion.
Where does the profit come from if not the margins? The advantage of non-profits is that they don't have to make a profit in the long run and might have to pay less taxes.
Not having to make profits might be true in the beginning for startups, but at some points investors want to see returns.
If I remember correctly, Uber is already making profits in some markets and using it to subsidize expansion in other markets.
> Where does the profit come from if not the margins?
At a high level:
"Margins" typically refers to what is left over after you take all of the revenue from selling a product and subtract all of the per-unit costs (ie, ignoring fixed costs).
"Profit" is then whatever is left over after you take all of your revenue, subtract your per-unit costs, and then subtract all of your overhead (salaries, office space, etc.)
So, whether you are a non-profit or a for-profit, the accounting there is the same. The difference is that for-profit companies can choose to use that profit to issue dividends to people who hold shares. If they don't, that money stays within the company (ie, it's "reinvested"). Non-profits don't have a choice: they cannot distribute dividends.
Many notable for-profit companies don't distribute dividends. From an accounting perspective, if they also reinvest all of their money back into the company before year's end, they are essentially equivalent to a non-profit company.
There are some caveats to this, but that's the general idea.
> The advantage of non-profits is that they don't have to make a profit in the long run
No company "has" to make a profit in the long run, as long as they break even. But again, whether or not they are able to break even is determined the same way, whether they're a non-profit or a for-profit company.
> and might have to pay less taxes.
This is jurisdiction-dependent and is a relatively minor effect, because taxation on profits just encourages the for-profit company to reinvest its capital anyway. Most of the other taxes that a company pays are paid by both for-profit and non-profit companies.
In any case, the difficulty that non-profits would have in raising comparable amounts of money to venture-backed competitors is much larger, by several orders of magnitude.
> Many notable for-profit companies don't distribute dividends. From an accounting perspective, if they also reinvest all of their money back into the company before year's end, they are essentially equivalent to a non-profit company.
Only if you discount the pressure to raise stock prices for public companies. There are plenty of cases where the pressure to do this in the short term, or even just to mitigate an expected drop in prices, has produced a strategy that is not optimal for the business itself.
> There are plenty of cases where the pressure to do this in the short term, or even just to mitigate an expected drop in prices, has produced a strategy that is not optimal for the business itself.
Non-profits are by no means immune to this. They still have a board, and that board still operates in the exact same way as the board of a for-profit company does, subject to virtually all of the same incentives.
There are countless cases in which non-profits act in ways that are sub-optimal for both the operation of the company and for the long-term mission outlined in the company's charter, because either the board or the executive leadership (or both) were responding to short-term incentives.
Again: focusing on the "non-profit" vs. "for-profit" distinction is essentially meaningless when figuring out how a company is incentivized to run its business. They are both subject to the same underlying economic forces and the same incentives.
> focusing on the "non-profit" vs. "for-profit" distinction is essentially meaningless when figuring out how a company is incentivized to run its business. They are both subject to the same underlying economic forces and the same incentives.
I think many of the incentives are the same, but not all. Or, better put, all the same incentives exist, but importance is attributed to them differently. I've known desire for recognition and ego to cause problems in an obvious way in a non-profit that while not impossible in a for-pofit organization, would appear to be far less common. I think the converse could be said with regard to monetary incentives. That is, it's not that when I say the incentives are different I mean some exist in one instance and don't in others, but that the relative importance applied to each is apportioned differently, and I view those as "different".
I was in Austin two weeks ago and was worried about the lack of Uber/Lyft. I had great experiences using RideAustin. A driver even mentioned that they pay him 2x fares to drive out to areas like the F1 track because it's outside of the city.
The first time, I waited 15 minutes when the driver was 3 minutes away, I gave up.
The second time, I got in the car and the driver said he didn't know where I was going and demanded directions. I had put it into the app but not sure why it wasn't passed along.
If Fasten's mission is to "be good to drivers," that's fine. But I thought their mission was to "get passengers to their destinations."
I started using cabs again. So Kitchens+Adler appear to have won that one.
So much scare-mongering went into this vote and it's a big reason why Prop 1 failed. No one was scammed by anybody.
Uber and Lyft chose to leave Austin. You can argue endlessly why they were forced out, but somehow other services managed to pop up and make the business work.
One of them included that TNCs can't stop in the middle of a busy road when picking up a rider. This is one thing I'm really glad got implemented because people have been seriously injured and killed[0] because TNCs stop in the middle of busy roads.
Your experience in your first example is not dissimilar to my various experiences with Lyft and Uber. A Lyft driver was incapable of following my directions at SFO (I followed the Lyft instructions). And I've had Uber drivers basically accept my request, only to remain in one place for 15 mins despite being 3 mins away (happened once in South America, another time in Canada). I've also had Uber drivers who enter in the destination only to get flummoxed by the map and basically go rogue.
I was in Austin recently for a conference and was surprised to find no Uber or Lyft cars available. I asked around and found out that they had left, which left a bad taste in my mouth. Lyft also left Houston, apparently.
I tried one of the new ones, Fasten. It worked really well and had several features I preferred over Uber/Lyft. I think the whole thing kind of worked out for the better.
IANAL, but the app prominently displaying "you're this much closer to the bonus" every time the driver uses it would seem to overrule some never-communicated retroactive contract term? If the app can't be relied on for commerce, why should any customer trust it?
By signing up ... you agree to the terms and conditions.
...
The terms and conditions are subject to change without notice.
--
Consider WhatsApp, for example. It probably said that personal information would not be shared with anyone. And then later changed the terms, it would be shared (with Facebook or whatever).
The difference is if you outright screw someone, they can leave. The ability to acquire new drivers is the limiting factor on the growth of Uber and Lyft. If they screw someone who has already gone through the process, it will likely cost them more than $350 to get a replacement.
Despite many folks talking conspiracy theories, I think this is just a process breakdown. I would be very surprised if the driver isn't made whole after the PR goes big.
I hope someone with more knowledge can come in and clarify, but I have always interpreted this as, "You agreed to X, if in the future we change our agreement to Y and you continue using our service, we will have assumed you agreed to Y".
I think that's pretty fair, it would be nice if services let you know when they updated their T&C, and sometimes they do (I recall Google doing this) but honestly, if you didn't read it the first time, will you read the updated version?
It would be nice if they could also provide a document with the differences, but I guess that would be a lot of work with no real benefit and still, no one would read it.
It would be nice if they could also provide a document with the
differences, but I guess that would be a lot of work
I doubt that. Legalese such as TOS are, I'm sure, prepared carefully and a diff should be readily available.
and still, no one would read it.
A few might want to read it and may actually do so (if they were to receive one).
--
As an example, Apple prompts one to send the terms upon upgrading the OS. This is a good step. Although it'd be better if they could highlight the changed text in the terms.
I think there is a requirement that the user be provided an opportunity to view and agree to the change....(unfortunately in general if someone has vested some time into something, they tend to continue to use it even at the cost of erosion of their rights).
Who knows? It may be my ignorance, but I struggle to remember an incident when customers challenged T&Cs on some service like this in the courts. There is law in the UK against unfair terms in contracts. But like the genome there are large parts that of the statute book which lie dormant.
I've never liked Lyft. The first time I used them I was supposed to get a free ride, but I didn't know where to input the coupon. I thought it was at payment time. So I didn't get my free ride. Also the driver knowing it was my first took a long time so he could get $25 for the ride. He took the long route and going three miles took half an hour. When we arrived at the destination he told me he didn't have cell phone service and asked if he could turn it off at the corner. He didn't turn off his app until several blocks away. I wrote to Lyft to complain about it and they wouldn't refund my money or let me change my driver rating. The driver was also unprofessional and told me he would call me. I emailed Lyft to see if the drivers have our phone numbers because I was worried he would bother me afterward. They never responded to that email.
Lets just call out the big elephant in the room here. Uber, Lyft or any other middle man service can be easily replaced by...you guessed it; Another middle man! Pulling out was so stupid for them as they basically did all the market creation and then just let others eat it all up. Thus setting a precedent that the same thing can be done in any other city and everyone will be "just fine". :?/
I've talked to a fair number of former drivers for Lyft/Uber in the Austin TX area. General feeling I've gotten from them is that Lyft was less shitty than Uber, but still not great.
A friend of mine sent me a $50 credit but it only ended up being $10 when I went to use it. I didn't really investigate but I feel like they do this a lot. I know this is for a driver but still.
If I understand this correctly, they are saying that you didn't complete the application within 30 days because it wasn't approved within 30 days. However, I believe that most people would consider the completion of an application and its approval as distinct events. What does the fine print state? Can this be pursued in small claims court?
A few new local companies have popped up to fill the hole in the market, and many have attracted drivers who were formerly with Lyft and Uber.
I've talked to a few of them about the new companies versus Lyft/Uber, and every single one of them has voiced the same thing; Lyft and Uber treat their drivers like shit, pull questionable stunts like this (one even mentioned something similar, except his app kept crashing or signing him out for 48 hours before the deadline for his 100 ride bonus, preventing him from getting the last few rides), and generally being dicks towards their "independent drivers".
Every single driver I asked said they wouldn't go back to Uber/Lyft. Most even indicated they wouldn't go back even if Uber/Lyft returned and drove the new companies out of business.
I've had great experiences with many drivers, and I hate think that they've been getting such a rotten deal from these companies.