> - If it works and prints money like it should, then OpenAI is on a path to become the next Mag 7 company. All the money they raised makes sense.
Makes sense for whom? Certainly not the users. The entire purpose of ads is to change your behavior in ways that benefit someone else. In ad-based search, ads are at least visually separable (and blockable) but in a conversational AI they are indistinguishable and corrupt the entire trust relationship. When your chat "assistant" has a financial incentive to steer you toward certain products or answers every response becomes suspect. The users are no longer getting the best answer but the most profitable one as we witnessed this happen in search over last 2 decades. Not a way to build a long lasting business.
I like your attitude, but there is potentially a major business in there if they can get users to tolerate it. (Major business meaning greater than the GDP of most countries.)
Over 75% of Google's revenue is ads. A bulk of that from Google Search ads.
I just don't think the ads will be natural. And I think OpenAI has been testing this in quiet and is now "changing course" because the results didn't look great. Hypothesis, of course, but it lines up with the signals we're getting.
> there is potentially a major business in there if they can get users to tolerate it. (Major business meaning greater than the GDP of most countries.)
I am actually contesting this idea, on the grounds that no business will survive long term if it is foundation is built on users 'tolerating' something bad for them.
This is based on my belief that humanity always chooses the right path eventually and not the one that leads to dystopia.
And yet, none of it is in/from Gemini. You'd think, if advertising in AI chatbots was feasible, wouldn't the world's biggest advertising company be the first to get there?
We are marking domains as slop if they contain mostly AI generated content. It is hard to say if a single piece of AI generated content is slop or not (there is useful AI generated content too). But if all the content on a domain is AI generated, it is likely something that people would not like in their results.
Kagi founder here. We are moving to a future where these subscriptions will be separate. Even today more that 80% of our members use Kagi Assistant and our other AI-supported products so saying "people are NOT paying Kagi for bullshit AI tools" is not accurate, mostly in the sense that we are not in the business of creating bullshit tools. Life is too short for that. I also happen to like Star Trek version of the future, where smart computers we can talk to exist. I also like that Star Trek is still 90% human drama, and 10% technology quitely working in the background in service of humans - and this is the kind of future I would like to build towards and leave for my children. Having the most accurate search in the world that has users' best interest in mind is a big part of it, and that is not going anywhere.
edit: seeing the first two (negative) replies to my comment made me smile. HN is tough crowd to please :) The thing is similar to how I did paid search and went all in with my own money when everyone thought I was crazy, I did that out of own need and need for my family to have search done right and am doing the same now with AI, wanting to have it done right as a product. What you see here is the result of this group of humans that call themself Kagi best effort - not more, not less.
Just wanted to chip in with a positive comment among the hail of negativity here. Thank you for what you and your team are doing. I've been getting tons of great use daily out of the search and news features, as well as occasionally using the assistant. It can definitely be hard to find decent paid alternatives to the freeware crap model so prevalent on the web, seeing your philosophy here is a huge breath of fresh air.
I found Kagi quite recently, and after blowing through my trial credits, and now almost blowing through my low tier (300) credits, I'm starting to look at the next tier up. However, it's approaching my threshold of value vs price.
I have my own payment methods for AI (OpenWebUI hosted on personal home server connected to OpenRouter API credits which costs me about $1-10 per month depnding on my usage), so seeing AI bundled with searches in the pricing for Kagi really just sucks the value out of the main reason I want to switch to Kagi.
I would love to be able to just buy credits freely (say 300 credits for $2-3) and just using them whenever. No AI stuff, no subscription, just pay for my searches. If I have a lull in my searches for a month, then a) no extra resources from Kagi have been spent, and b) my credits aren't used and rollover. Similarly, if I have a heavy search month, then I'll buy more and more credits.
I just don't want to buy extra AI on top of what I already have.
Some people are contrarian simply to be contrarian. I'm loving the features that are coming out. I use Translate, Assistant, Universal Summarizer, and (of course) Search multiple times a day. Not everything is going to be for everyone, I'm personally not really interested in News, but it certainly feels like I'm getting value out of my subscription. The only thing I'm actively missing with Assistant is a proper app - the PWA is fine but the keyboard glitches out sometimes, navigation is not as fluid/smooth as it could be on a native app, same with file/photo uploads, and notifications when you leave the app and the reply is done would really tie it together.
> We are moving to a future where these subscriptions will be separate. Even today more that 80% of our members use Kagi Assistant and our other AI-supported products so saying "people are NOT paying Kagi for bullshit AI tools" is not accurate, mostly in the sense that we are not in the business of creating bullshit tools.
For what it's worth, as someone who tends to be pretty skeptical of introducing AI tools into my life, this statistic doesn't really convince me much of the utility of them. I'm not sure how to differentiate this from selection bias where users who don't want to use AI tools just don't subscribe in the first place rather than this being a signal that the AI tools are worthwhile for people outside of a niche group who are already interested enough to pay for them.
This isn't as strong a claim as what the parent comment was saying; it's not saying that the users you have don't want to be paying for AI tools, but it doesn't mean that there aren't people who are actively avoiding paying for them either. I don't pretend to have any sort of insight into whether this is a large enough group to be worth prioritizing, but I don't think the statement of your perspective here is going to be particularly compelling to anyone who doesn't already agree with you.
> I also happen to like Star Trek version of the future, where smart computers we can talk to exist [...], this is the kind of future I would like to build towards
Well if that doesn't seal the deal in making it clear that Kagi is not about search anymore, I don't know what does. Sad day for Kagi search users, wow!
> Having the most accurate search in the world that has users' best interest in mind is a big part of it
It's not, you're just trying to convince yourself it is.
First time that there is a worthy alternative to Claude Code. Codex Max solved a problem I had Claude Code fail multiple times. Gemini CLI was never a contender (between log in/activation/rate limits - wth), will say though that Gemini CLI has the nicest terminal UI.
reply