Honest question. The EU was created as an economic and trade institution. How has it morphed into a wierd political institution, which NATO was already supposed to be?
The root question: how did an organization that ushered in things like the Euro become a body that decides whether Europeans are allowed to have personal privacy?
The answer is pretty simple. This decision isn't "the EU".
The European Commission has fewer employees than the Luxembourg government (and keep in mind, they're "running" a continent).
This decision was the Council, i.e. simply the national member governments. Don't let anyone blame "the EU" for this, the national governments are the ones that proposed this, pushed it through EU institutions, and might now try to override the EU parliament about it. Just because national (elected) governments are pushing it through EU institutions doesn't mean you should blame "the EU". It wasn't the "Eurocrats".
What you're describing is how the process in the EU works. So in essence it is "the EU".
It doesn't seem to have any limits or restrictions on what it can do as an institution. It forced idiotic bottlecaps on all of us for shit's sake... and it has little consideration for privacy laws or constitutions of individuals, otherwise this proposal would've been thrown out automatically each time, if there was anything resembling constitutional values governing the EU's mandates.
It's like being governed by a neurotic unhinged monarch.
But the national governments are the ones who gave themselves that power in the first place. Because they wanted to be able to do shit like this. Hopefully the EU Parliament will stop them.
But the takeaway from this shouldn't be: "screw the EU", it should be: make the EU more democratic, and give more power to the parliament and less to the backroom machinations of member states. That's exactly what the pro-EU reformists want to do. Or you could pass an EU Constitution that enshrines basic rights including privacy, which the pro-Europe activists tried in 2005 (it explicitly mentioned communications privacy) but failed due to anti-EU pushback and fears over "sovereignty".
If it were national governments making laws like this (as opposed to the EU), citizens would be free to move to other European countries that respected their basic civil liberties. The first country that implemented Chat Control would suffer immediate brain drain, and it would be a lesson to governments elsewhere.
However, because the EU forces all countries to move in lock-step, it means citizens are denied the freedom to vote with their feet. They cannot move to the country next door. They'd need to flee to another continent, which is a much more significant move. The feedback loop (i.e. people voting with their feet due to govt policy) is then more coarse-grained, and less obvious for all to see.
> The first country that implemented Chat Control would suffer immediate brain drain, and it would be a lesson to governments elsewhere.
I left the UK because of the Investigatory Powers Act, and because Brexit would make it hard to fight that act. I used my freedom of movement within the EU to get to an EU nation. Did the UK "suffer immediate brain drain"? Not from Brexit, from the Investigatory Powers Act.
The EU "lockstep" (except not really, see a few weeks ago) on stuff like this happen because the governments all talk to each other and negotiate their positions. It's not nefarious, it's basically the same as any other government having a debate in a parliamentary setting. Difference is, the EU needs either a supermajority or a unanimous result depending on the topic, it's not generally enough for them to have a simple majority like national governments do.
Chat control is QMV. Tougher to get that than any legislation in, say, the UK parliament.
> Or you could pass an EU Constitution that enshrines basic rights including privacy
That, and (somehow) enforce the basic principles of subsidiarity and proportionality, which they are supposed to do already. That would go a long way towards not misusing that centralized power.
I will have to read up on that 2005 event, sounds weird to me that countries would complain about there being constitutional rights at the EU level. Not sure how those rights would conflict with local ones. Unless there were positive rights, like "the right to internet" or the like, which would be ridiculous and not what I'm proposing (just basic negative rights).
EU (and preceding organisations since European Coal and Steel Community) were created so that there will be no war in Europe. How exactly this objective is achieved is of secondary importance. It is economic institution, because someone calculated that this will be best shot, but if (or when) calculation credibly shifts (for example, that it would be better for them to be a religion, a feudal system, or a federation -- whatever), it will morph into something else.
I'd say that it has 100% fulfilled its primary goal that there is no military conflict between major European states for like 80 years and counting, which is longest period ever recorded and a historical anomaly. The means of how it was executed is obviously a matter of debate, mistakes were made etc., but we over here generally make love, not war.
the entire point is to build a country called Europe
and the EU is built on the "Monnet method", where it slowly ratchets forward taking more power from national parliaments and giving it to the EU council/commission
(with a useless parliament there to make it appear democratic)
the UK leaving is the only example of the ratchet being reversed
> The EU was created as an economic and trade institution. How has it morphed into a wierd political institution, which NATO was already supposed to be?
That is not the case.
The 1957 Treaty Establishing the European Community contained the objective of “ever closer union” in the following words in the Preamble. In English this is: “Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe …..”.
> The root question: how did an organization that ushered in things like the Euro become a body that decides whether Europeans are allowed to have personal privacy?
Sensationalist framing aside, how does any government become a body that decides anything?
> Sensationalist framing aside, how does any government become a body that decides anything?
Powerful people get together and decide that they know what's best for people. Then they claim that there is "consent" because people are given the right to vote and that there is a "social contract" that no one actually has signed, which everyone should still abide by.
That treaty was established just over a decade after Hitler surrendered, when there were two Germanys, an Iron curtain across Europe, and a lot of other things which changed significantly after the Wall fell. Surely you would agree that those words meant something quite different then than they do now?
I don't think my framing was sensationalist at all. Chat Control is using the threat of child porn to make people forget the reasons why the ECHR cares so deeply about privacy. I'm not sure why Denmark is pushing it so hard, but governments have long feared and hated encryption.
Not only are you moving your goalposts from "this wasn't the original purpose" (it was - it's part of the founding document!), but it has been reaffirmed and strengthened over and over again since: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-...
Don't get me wrong - I, too, care about privacy and think Chat Control is a horrible idea, that thankfully seems to be getting shut down. That doesn't mean the EU is somehow not legitimate as a governing body.
I was not moving goalposts. I was saying that the way we interpret the words has changed over time, and therefore we are taking words that meant one thing in 1957 and reinterpreting them to fit assumptions for today. Thus the semantic drift creates a shift.
To address the other point, I think we're missing a question of scope. Is the EU a legitimate governing body for negotiating trade deals and employment regulations between countries? Absolutely. I question however whether in recent years EU has begun to either scope-drift or expand their scope beyond what might be considered reasonable.
I think this is a natural tendency within human nature, especially when a governing body is given some power. Over time new opportunities arise which allow the body to gain more power, and then they reinterpret founding documents to include some of the new powers they want. I think it is pretty clear this is happening with the EU. Look at the rise of nationalist parties in Germany and France, etc.
Such words in any Preamble are usually meant as a lofty declaration of some ideal, not a concrete political goal.
After all, "ever closer" does not even mean federation, it means a unitary state, which is "closer" than a federation or a confederation.
If you believe that a single sentence in a 1957 treaty can be used as a ramrod to push European federalization from above, you will be surprised by the backlash. European nations aren't mostly interested in becoming provinces of a future superstate, potential referenda in this direction will almost certainly fail, and given the growth of the far right all over the continent, I don't expect the governments to agree to any further voluntary transfer of powers to Brussels.
Also, the European Commission is not a government and is not meant to act as a government that can decide "everything".
The countries that formed the EU have only agreed to transfer some powers to Brussels. Not give it an unlimited hand over everything. And Chat Control is a major infringement of constitutional rights in many countries, where inviolability of communication except for concrete warrants has been written into law for decades.
Imagine a situation if the German Constitutional Court says "this is illegal by the German Grundgesetz, and German law enforcement may not execute such laws". Do you believe that German authorities will defer to Brussels instead of its own Constitutional Court? Nope. Same with Poland etc. Local constitutional institutions have more legitimacy among the people than the bunch of bureaucrats in Brussels.
I don't think a mere Federalization should happen. I think a unitary state is - as you said! - what we all signed up for and what we should get.
There's a reason the "ever closer" phrasing has been repeated over and over again - in the 1983 Solemn Declaration, the 1997 Maastricht Treaty, the 2009 Lisbon treaty etc etc.
Look at China's rise and our fall - a direct consequence of centralization and the lack thereof.
This is about the vote on the EU Constitution in the early 2000s during which both French and Dutch people voted against. Later the EU decided to pass it without a referendum to side step this "democracy issue". Something you would have know about if you actually understood the topic.
So no, "even closer union" is not something that most europeans want, especially not in the current climate of corruption and fuckups by the commission.
Is that why the Commission can ignore the MEP's votes?
Also, many European governments have not been elected by people voting for them but by people voting against their opponent. Hardly a vote of confidence.
> An extra vote on top of the election was always foolish.
Yes, so foolish to ask people their opinion. If only we could have one strong man or woman decide everything.
MEPs have the same power to put laws through s back benchers in the Westminster system. They have the same power to evict the executive as the house does in America.
The Commission is literally our elected government's representatives.
It's not some outside power. It's people our governments send there. And it's exactly the same amount of democratic as a ministership is.
> Yes, so foolish to ask people their opinion.
The average voter doesn't know everything about everything. That's the whole point of representative democracy, to elect a representative to deal with the intricacies of governance. That's how most democratic countries in the world are structured.
> The Commission is literally our elected government's representatives.
Oh, von der Leyen was elected?
Mertz represents 28,52% of the German people who voted. Who is he actually representing? Definitely not the German people, that's for sure.
> The average voter doesn't know everything about everything. That's the whole point of representative democracy, to elect a representative to deal with the intricacies of governance.
No, representatives are there to represent the opinions of their electorate. It has nothing to do with knowledge.
Representatives have teams of assistants that actually do have knowledge. No representative is writing laws themselves. That's why you see laws being lifted straight from industry lobby groups' legal teams.
There is a reason indeed - unbridled utopianism that will eventually sink us.
In practice, the only political party that openly advocates for a European Federation, Volt, is polling around statistical error from zero in most EU countries. The will of the people isn't there.
Becoming a federation or even a unitary state isn't a self-executing protocol. Actual heads of governments have to meet, agree to dissolve their individual countries into a superstate with one central government, and actual parliaments have to ratify this.
You don't have the vote to do this democratically. European nationalisms were at their lowest ebb in cca 2000; since then, they have returned with vengeance.
You don't have the force to do this forcibly. No Genghis Khan or Napoleon on the scene.
And in the current connected world, you can't even do this by stealth. The only result of the people actually learning of such a plan would be far-right governments in France and Germany at the same time, ffs.
Please stop. Just stop. When I was a youngster, I witnessed violent collapse of Yugoslavia, somewhat less violent collapse of the Soviet Union and fortunately non-violent collapse of Czechoslovakia, three entities whose constituent nations didn't want to be tied together. I don't want to see 2.0 of those, continent-wide, when I am old.
"Look at China's rise and our fall - a direct consequence of centralization and the lack thereof."
Becoming more like China is not particularly attractive for former Eastern Bloc countries. Chat Control is enough of a window into such future that I don't want to go there. Also, your history is massively incomplete. Cherry-picking of some events while ignoring others.
The pinnacle of European power, with the European countries controlling half of mankind, happened around 1900, with no centralization of the continent in place. And we have been losing our relative strength since 2000, which is precisely the time when the continent is most integrated ever.
Chinese central government unleashed at least two total disasters on its own population in the 20th century - the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. It can unleash some more if a sufficiently unhinged person gets into power again. With centralized power, you are free to make some Huge Mistakes.
I certainly don't want future Brussels to start some European versions of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, just because they can. Austria-Hungary collapsed on such stupidity after 400 years of continuing integration.
The will of the people never mattered. All that matters is ideology and force to execute on it.
> Becoming more like China is not particularly attractive for former Eastern Bloc countries
Yeah, what's attractive for former Eastern Block countries is mooching off Western Europe, taking our money and then blocking any progress and electing regressive autocrats. In some ways, it was better when you were one of our (Austrian) colonies. At least we managed to drag you into modernity against your will.
> Chinese central government unleashed at least two total disasters on its own population in the 20th century - the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. It can unleash some more if a sufficiently unhinged person gets into power again
That's the beauty of it! They did all of that and yet they are thriving now. None of this shit matters in the long term. To quote Mao - "A revolution is not a dinner party".
"The will of the people never mattered. All that matters is ideology and force to execute on it."
OK, hence your admiration of China. Now I understand.
"Yeah, what's attractive for former Eastern Block countries is mooching off Western Europe, taking our money"
As of now, places like Germany are stagnating so much that they are called "the sick man of Europe" again, while places like Poland show enormous economic upswing. You can lie to yourself that this is caused by "taking our money", but what really kills growth in the West is bureaucracy running amok + deep anti-growth mindset of the Green part of the political spectrum. Which is negligible here, and which is both a self-inflicted wound in the West.
"and then blocking any progress"
How dare those uppity Slavs have any ideas that conflict with our better wisdom, right?
I will tell you where this sea change began: in the "wir schaffen das" autumn of 2015. That is when the eastern half of the EU found out that Western elites are suicidal or, at best, totally unrealistic, and that we cannot simply follow them into their abyss of stupidity.
Ten years later, only fanatics will call the Wilkommenskultur a success. We were right, you were wrong, and you have to live with the consequences.
"and electing regressive autocrats".
Says Austria, which elected a Nazi president (Kurt Waldheim) and introduced the FPÖ into its federal government already in the 20th century? I still remember the boycotts that resulted from that move.
"In some ways, it was better when you were one of our (Austrian) colonies."
Neither Czech lands, nor Slovenia, Galicia etc. were, in any sense, Austrian colonies. It was an amalgamation of old medieval kingdoms under one ruling house. As citizens of the old empire, we were all equal under the law - not a colonial situation where the natives are usually second-class people.
"At least we managed to drag you into modernity against your will."
Half of the people who dragged Austria-Hungary into modernity were Jewish intellectuals and businesspeople who were then massacred by German nationalists in one of the greatest crimes of history, and Austria was a massive hotbed of anti-Semitism since the era of Georg von Schönerer and Karl Lüger. Not to mention a certain unsuccessful painter on the top of it.
So thanks for precisely nothing. The worst of the rot started in Vienna, which even had the gall to call a neighboring capital "Judapest".
But you have shown your colors pretty well. Force, ideology, subjugation, agree with us or else. Fortunately modern Austria or Europe isn't really made for people like you anymore. Still a surprise to meet someone like you here on Hacker News.
> How dare those uppity Slavs have any ideas that conflict with our better wisdom, right?
I am an uppity Slav myself, brate.
> Neither Czech lands, nor Slovenia, Galicia etc. were, in any sense, Austrian colonies. It was an amalgamation of old medieval kingdoms under one ruling house. As citizens of the old empire, we were all equal under the law - not a colonial situation where the natives are usually second-class people.
Sure, just like in the Soviet Union ;)
> Half of the people who dragged Austria-Hungary into modernity were Jewish intellectuals and businesspeople who were then massacred by German nationalists in one of the greatest crimes of history.
Thank you for proving my point that nationalism is a poison to be overcome - by finally getting rid of our little tribal chiefdoms and creating a unitary state not defined by national identity.
> Force, ideology, subjugation, agree with us or else. Fortunately modern Austria or Europe isn't really made for people like you anymore. Still a surprise to meet someone like you here on Hacker News.
This is the way the world works, like it or not. The reason Europe has been doing poorly lately is because of deluded utopists thinking it isn't. It's the way the US operates. It's the way China operates. Only we in Europe think we're special little snowflakes and better than everyone else.
Comparing Austria-Hungary to the former Soviet Union is pure lunacy. I wonder if you have been reading Mencius Moldbug too much.
"The reason Europe has been doing poorly lately is because of deluded utopists thinking it isn't. "
So you think that democracy is inherently poorer and weaker than autocracies? (Again, this sounds like Mencius Moldbug.) We have had our fair share of autocratic empires in Europe across centuries, all of them are gone. Many actually collapsed after losing a war. How so, if they are so inherently powerful?
We have different problems, such as aging of the population. But so does China, which worsened its own demographic situation by clinging to its autocratic One Child Policy until 2016, about 20 years more than it was even useful.
We also have a bureaucratic problem. Again, this is not specifically democratic disease. Every big country requires bureaucracy to run, and it can easily overwhelm the rest of the system.
I am pretty much diametrically opposed to Yarvin ideologically. I think his plans are for a dystopia.
I do think that bourgeois democracy is just a thin veil for capitalist interest and that unless the economy is democratized, nothing is.
The closest model to follow would probably be post-Stalin-Split Yugoslavia under Tito. I especially like the concepts of worker self-management, which imo is a much more meaningfully democratic system than the autocratic capitalist ownership structures of western liberalism.
Tito was, by all accounts, a very capable politician, but he also built a system that, 10 years after his death, disintegrated in a fountain of blood.
I like systems that withstood some test of time and adversary winds. Titoist Yugoslavia didn't.
OK, so you like the concept of worker self-management. At the same time, you admire the economic power of the US and China. Neither seems to be based on worker self-management.
Worker cooperatives are legal in most of the world, but regardless of local specifics, they seem to have trouble crossing a certain productivity level. The largest one is located in Basque country, where a local feeling of nationalism and somewhat of a siege mentality re larger nations (France, Spain) might have fueled its size. In general, cooperatives have trouble holding on to their best talent, because it can get better wages elsewhere.
If worker cooperatives were a globally competitive institution, we would see a lot more of them.
I think the mistake of Yugoslavia was letting reactionaries and nationalists creep back in after Tito's death. To me, it proves the necessity of some domestic repression to keep our worst impulses in check.
Regarding worker cooperatives and competitiveness, as a socialist I do not believe the market is a good indicator of a systems quality. This, too, can be solved with a bit of state force. If the only legal structure for a company is a worker's coop, then we don't need to worry about talent loss to non-coop companies.
I assume this is sarcasm, but, for those reading, a unitary state is definitely not what those words meant. If they did, that would mean that 27 countries willingly and fully signed away their sovereignty, without knowledge of the public. The only times where this has happened before in world histoey was either surrender in the face if insurmountable odds, or a decision by the elites in exchange for unimaginable riches. As far as I know, the politicians and bureaucrats who made/signed those treaties didn't become billionaires since.
"things written on paper" is the basis of any serious, respectable country. "Things written on paper" should be respected, because when you are serious about your commitments, words matter.
I don't want to see the country I live in become a shithole because local armed forces or police think themselves above the law.
The ultimate legitimacy test is whether you are serious about the things you sign. Not if some proto-fascist wants to tear down institutions.
OK, let me formulate this better. Let us say that you have a serious conflict between two such papers.
One of them is the nation's constitution, the other is a decision from Brussels, and people from politicians down to the regular cop will have to choose their allegiance, A or B.
I claim that in such situation, in most EU nations, their constitutions will win. They are held in higher emotional regard, as they have behind them a long legacy of struggle and memory of people whose lives were martyred in a fight for national freedom.
Which is actually why Brussels shouldn't push some things too hard.
Speaking of a nation's constitution, how do you feel about Article 23 of the German Grundgesetz?
> (1) With a view to establishing a united Europe, the Federal Republic of Germany shall participate in the development of the European Union that is committed to democratic, social and federal principles, to the rule of law and to the principle of subsidiarity and that guarantees a level of protection of basic rights essentially comparable to that afforded by this Basic Law. To this end the Federation may transfer sovereign powers by a law with the consent of the Bundesrat. The establishment of the European Union, as well as changes in its treaty foundations and comparable regulations that amend or supplement this Basic Law or make such amendments or supplements possible, shall be subject to paragraphs (2) and (3) of Article 79.
I would hope the people, politicians and cops of Germany follow their constitution.
> One of them is the nation's constitution, the other is a decision from Brussels, and people from politicians down to the regular cop will have to choose their allegiance, A or B.
I am presuming that this nation is a democracy, with a legitimately elected government. "Brussels" (i.e.: The European Union), whether you like it or not, also is a democratic institution, with a legitimately elected parliament and other representatives appointed by the government of member states (all of those democracies; and also Hungary).
In the event where there is a contradiction (and there eventually are some), those should be solved by politicians, courts, governments. It's not up to a cop to choose allegiances. He should follow the law, to the best understanding and direction of the institution he serves.
The police is subject to local and national governments. The direction will come from those. And then it is up to this hypothetical nation government to sort out its differences with the bloc through the established channels.
Because, again, a serious and respectable country honors its commitments. When something becomes law in the EU, to my understanding, there is a period until this has to be adopted in the member states as part of their law as well.
> They are held in higher emotional regard, as they have behind them a long legacy of struggle and memory of people whose lives were martyred in a fight for national freedom.
This ks absolutely irrelevant, and not how a serious country conducts itself. The constitution is not immutable. There are avenues for it to change, following established procedure. You for some reason pretend the constitution is overridden when no such thing happens.
> Which is actually why Brussels shouldn't push some things too hard.
The irony here is that the "Brussels" that in your view is "pushing" too hard, typically is the EU council or EU commission.
Those bodies are either formed by the heads of state and of each country, or by officials appointed by those same heads of state.
The countries are all in on those changes you think is being "imposed".
>How has it morphed into a wierd political institution
Von der Leyen, an autocratic fascist that is ruining this continent. She failed to push her agenda in Germany so she "failed upwards". Even how she got this position was highly controversial and went against the top candidate principle. The EU commission is exceeding their competencies. The EU is not democratic, there is no parliamentary oversight, the parliament can't even introduce legislative proposals. No one can vote for the EU commission, only the parliament can vote for or against all the proposed candidates (not one by one). Parliament is essentially a rubber stamp for the commission.
I suggest actually looking at how the EU operates instead of accusing others of "spreading disinformation and propaganda" which is a typical response when someone critizies EU institutions.
>There is parliamentary oversight
A rubber stamp is oversight I guess. Laws like the DMA and DSA give the commission way too much power without being kept in check.
>it's literally the next step in the process.
Ah yes the "informal trilogue" where all parties meet behind closed doors and the public and most parliament members are excluded. Only ten members allowed! Did you know that from 2009 to 2014 at least 93% EU-wide laws were "debated" this way?
>We all voted for the EU commission through our respective elections for national governments, who appoint the comission
That's a very generous definition of "voted". As I said people can't vote for the EU commission nor can the parliament vote for the members of the commission. Remember that the EU commission is the ONLY one that can propose laws, the parliament CAN NOT do this even though it's their job.
>You could not be jailed for this comment, though sometimes I wish you could
Yes let's jail everyone for online comments you do not like. How about that German journalist that critizied a politician regarding free speech and got probation? Or when the police raided someone's home because he called a politician on Twitter a "dick"? Is this your idea of democracy?
> That's a very generous definition of "voted". As I said people can't vote for the EU commission nor can the parliament vote for the members of the commission. Remember that the EU commission is the ONLY one that can propose laws, the parliament CAN NOT do this even though it's their job.
People can't vote for ministers etc either. That's how representative democracy works.
> How about that German journalist that critizied a politician regarding free speech and got probation?
You mean a neonazi that was spreading Nazi propaganda in Germany, which is a bit sensitive when it comes to that sort of thing for obvious historical reasons?
> Or when the police raided someone's home because he called a politician on Twitter a "dick
That was in fact ridiculous and I agree with you that this shouldn't have happened. But that isn't "the EU" that's German conservatives.
You can't compare voting ministers with how the voting for EU institution works. The votes get so watered down that its far away from representative.
>You mean a neonazi that was spreading Nazi propaganda in Germany
Ah yes everyone is a Nazi... no I'm talking about David Bendels. You may not like Deutschland-Kurier (I certainly do not, that's also not relevant) but going after a journalist because he posted a meme picture of Nancy Faeser with the text "I hate freedom of speech" is way over the top (and proves him right ironically).
>But that isn't "the EU" that's German conservatives
That was the SPD which is on the left spectrum.
You don't seem to know much about this stuff so why bother replying trying to make other readers think I were some sort of disinformation spreader? That's incredibly dishonest.
What's funny about this article is that it seems to focus on the Republic without addressing any of his other dialogues. What about the aporetic dialogs where there are no clear answers? What about his Parmenides where he rips to shreds his own golden theory of forms?
To say that he got "everything" wrong, there's an assertion that we now have some "correct" answer which supercedes Plato. Can we now say with confidence what defines justice, which in many ways was the point of the Republic? What about defining love, the topic of the Symposium?
Rather than taking an arrogant modernist high horse and saying Plato was wrong about everything, it might behoove to highlight some of the questions Plato raised, and see how well we can answer them today.
Yup, couldn't agree more. One of my biggest intellectual annoyances is the common (mis)conception that philosophy is about answers when, as you said, it's really about questions. Less debate, more play.
They often can run code in sandboxes, and generally are good at instruction following, so maybe they can run variants of doom pretty reliably sometime soon.
That is what I meant, that the code is being executed. Not all programming languages are supported when it comes to execution, obviously. I know for a fact Python is supported.
I highly recommend against watching the movie. The main figure, Tim Jenison, comes off as an arrogant know-it-all, reducing art to a technique, and insulting people along the way. In the movie, multiple times he said "I have never done this before, but how hard could it be?"
I'll note two parts of the movie that support my view. First, if his art is so great, then why is it not displayed all over the place? He has a few alleged experts giving praise without criticism, and in the end, it is on the wall in his bedroom. Surely, if the art were that easy to recreate, galleries would be demanding his piece?
Second, notice how they never actually show the real painting. In fact, at one point they make it out to be a conspiracy, that the painting is being kept in some back room nobody can access. I would loved to have seen the real painting side-by-side with Tim's alleged reproduction. I suspect they didn't push to hard for access, because it would have ruined their narrative.
I agree that Tim definitely comes off as a bit of a jerk. However...
> First, if his art is so great, then why is it not displayed all over the place? He has a few alleged experts giving praise without criticism, and in the end, it is on the wall in his bedroom. Surely, if the art were that easy to recreate, galleries would be demanding his piece?
I could be wrong but I don't think there's much demand for replicas of classic paintings even if they are incredibly high quality. A lot of the value of a Vermeer painting is that it was actually painted by Vermeer in the 17th century -- not necessarily the quality of the piece itself.
I thought the point of the movie was to claim that Vermeer was nothing special, and Tim's effort to recreate the painting was supposed to prove that. I think the galleries would disagree with that point, otherwise they would not care whether Vermeer actually painted them.
And yes, both of my points are speculation, fueled by an immense dislike for the movie.
If the claims are true then Vermeer is absolutely exceptional, just in a different manner than is usually considered.
All painters must grapple with the technical nature of paint itself and its manipulation. Choice of type of paint, canvas, application, &c. is paramount. Rothko’s work, for instance, is only effective because he found a novel way to apply paint that lends his paintings a remarkable, nigh eerie depth of color. Spending roughly half an hour just staring at the Seagram murals in the “Rothko Room” at the Tate Modern is one of my all-time favorite experiences.
that would be cool! sincerely. post it here if you do.
i feel like the above comment might come across as sarcastic but i genuinely find it super cool when a layman can master a new discipline with force of will and publicly available writings. much like vermeer's much speculated-upon clever use of technology ;)
I think you are projecting. I don’t recall getting any of that from the movie, which I recall being very respectful of Vermeer’s legacy. The narrators (Penn and Teller) are themselves magicians and it would be immensely hypocritical of them to denigrate an artist by showing there’s an underlying trick.
But your partner's government contact info (name and email) is already accessible, either via a government website or via FOIA. The issue here is that the DOGE employee info was not accessible before, and 2600 is being penalized for publishing it. Regardless of what they say in the article (provided it's not incitement to violence or something), the point is that the names and emails should have been public already.
It's not personal information, and it's not random people. It is the government email addresses of government employees, and yes, that should be public, as is the case for all other government employees at every level.
If it were something personal like a home address or phone number, that would be different.
> Spamming random employees gov e-mails on the internet is a disservice to tax payers money to put it lightly.
They aren't random, they are DOGE employees. And at the moment, we don't even know what the role of DOGE is in the US government. Is Elon Musk a cabinet member, despite not being confirmed by the Senate? If DOGE exists solely as an advisory body, then why do they have the power to fire employees of other agencies (which have been ratified by Congress)?
So rather than being upset about posting public email addresses of public employees, I would say the disservice to taxpayers is allowing an unelected agency to make decisions about other agencies with no Congressional oversight.
As for "is there a law" I think this is implicit in the nature of representation. If you vote for someone to represent you, and after they are elected you have no way to contact them, how do they actually represent you? I'm not suggesting people should harass DOGE employees or say bad things to them, just that we need more transparency in general.
I just looked this up. I feel like this should have been obvious to me before but Trump has a contact form and Obama has an official email address. Though they probably go through like 12 layers of indirection first.
They are definitely read. I had a bad visit and was accused once of plotting to assassinate Clinton because someone I'd given an account to on a Linux box sent a very detailed manifesto to that email address. ~1996?
Sure, but the ToS wording states you need their permission. I'm guessing their permission wasn't acquired. To me it seems like this wording is to prevent witch-hunts. Which this effectively was. I don't know about you but a good old fashioned witch-hunt is shit behaviour for someone doing their job. I don't verbally abuse parking inspectors (as much as I want to). They are doing it to pay their bills and feed their family.
The root question: how did an organization that ushered in things like the Euro become a body that decides whether Europeans are allowed to have personal privacy?
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